One of the most special encounters of my journalism was a visit with Ngugi wa Thiongo, a gentleman and writer who has now gone to be with the ancestors. I am sharing the conversation we had then (we were both in the Bay Area of California). To be frank I had deliberately sought him out ( earlier I had interviewed Ali Mazrui who has also left the stage). We wish the best as he joins the pantheon of the great inquisitors of our experience as Africans.
May we all be worthy of the time he has spent amongst us.
~Chatting~
ANGELO: For those who don’t really understand what ubuntu is, in brief what would you say
NGUGI: Oh ok, I was explaining, actually why I am here. I was invited by Priority Network Africa. But it is a very good concept, Ubuntu. I think it means “humanness”. You know in many Bantu languages, the primary substance of being is actually “mtu”. For example, “mtu”—“person,” “kitu”—“thing,” a thing, place, time and they all have “mtu” in it. So I think this concept is very good because it shows the oneness of humanity. And the oneness of the universe, because what underlies the universe is that “mtu”. In Kikuyu it is “ndo,” in Ki Swahili it is “tu”, in Uganda it is “mtu” and I think you will find the same thing in Zulu and any Bantu language. So Ubuntu is a very good word I think.
ANGELO: And your comments here are going to reflect on that commonness.
NGUGI: Yeah, well also more on the whole idea of network. I think this idea of network as opposed to hierarchy. Unfortunately, the world is organized on hierarchy and division and so it is not organized on this idea of “give” and “take”. You know? That is a network. A network really has no one center. You think of say, a fishing net. You see all of those nodes they give and take simultaneously. Interconnected, but more so that it is both giving and taking. The strength of a net comes from that balance of energy in a net a net, so to speak. So to me that concept of network, as opposed to hierarchy and division, is very important.
Take for instance, even the idea of languages, for instance, which is my pet thing. Languages are organized like some aristocracy of languages. European languages, and the languages of Africa and Asia and so on. And it is not true. All languages have the same potentiality [potential] of development. There is no language which has “blue blood” in it, as they say in the European aristocracy. Blue blood, not red. All languages have the same potentiality for growth, for development. As do cultures. All cultures have the same potentiality for development and so and all cultures have something to give and something to learn from others, but a hierarchy assumes that the aristocracy of cultures and languages have nothing to learn from one another. Many are “lowly” languages and cultures and so on.
ANGELO: This idea of Ubuntu, I describe it as humanism in the African sense, that there is this symbiosis.
NGUGI: Well, for instance, every Bantu Language talks about “Ado Pico….” [15:00] “Ado” or “Modo” means human being so if I meet say a European (“Modo”), a human being from Europe. It has that “do” and “mtu” in it. So actually, I really like to think of it as this sort of ‘primary substance of being’ than just plain African, although it is of course embodied in [some] African languages and cultures. But still, I think it is more universal and that is why I think it is very rich.
ANGELO: So, are you writing another book?
NGUGI: Yes, actually. You know my book Dreams in a time of war. This book is my childhood memoir. {So I’ve been invited to Stanford to give a talk in April—lectures on the novel.} I am working on the second volume in this series, the second phase of my youth. It is tentatively called In the house of the interpreter.
ANGELO: This may touch upon what you will speak about in your April talk here at Stanford, but perhaps you can tell us what themes do you feel are not being addressed by African writers today?
NGUGI: I think African writers can address many themes which are relevant to both Africa and the world. The thing I critique is the tendency of African intellectual productions to be in European languages. I feel strongly about that. Not because I have anything against European languages because they are important languages, just that African languages are important as well. But I’d like to see more African languages, particularly in young people, engaging directly in African languages, rather than feeling compelled to always write in French, English, and Portuguese.
ANGELO: There are no particular themes that you feel are being neglected?
NGUGI: No I think generally if you take African literature as a whole, no matter what language it’s written in, they cover, really, many themes of relevance.
I teach a course on colonialism and the rise of modern African literature, and what I tell my students is that when you study African literature, in California, don’t think that we are studying things which are “out there”, which have no relevance to you and your being here in America, or in the West generally, that you cannot think of the development of the modern world including the West, without seeing colonialism. Even the intellectual history of ideas. Beginning with the post-Renaissance you cannot think of it without colonialism. So Africa was always in the mix, although not under conditions that were always beneficial to Africa. So I like people to think about African literature, from ancient to post-colonial literature, as a literature that really, really, addresses the human in our world today more centrally than I can think of any other literature. Not because it is necessarily superior to other literatures, but because the conditions that produce it are so intertwined with the being of the world today. So in this sense, post colonial literature is so important. Not only from Africa, but from Asia, and Latin America as well.
ANGELO: I remember asking a similar question about African intellectuals in the 1960s to Ali Mazrui the time he was in Kampala. He has a chair now, an endowed chair, and he is established in Makerere but I want to ask you the same question, in a sense. How would you characterize that 1960s blooming of African writing? Would you say it is different from what we are seeing today?
NGUGI: Well I would like to put it another way. In the 1960s when we were beginning to write there was a lot of energy and optimisim that emanated, anti-colonial energy, in society as a whole. Because the 60s in Africa, not just Africa but also the world, and what was going on: every nation was demanding independence, you know, there were wars for independence going on in Kenya, in Algeria, you know India became independent in 1947, China became liberated in 1948, Ghana in 1957, so there is a lot of energy. And I think this energy found its way into the lives of intellectuals. If you look at the writers who emerge in the 60s (not the early ones in South Africa) but the ones who emerge in the 50s and 60s they were nearly all university students, or just graduated from university. Where did these young people get their energy? It’s not that they were any brighter than us, the ones who came after, but the energy that was there was reflected in their work their energy. Anyway, that’s my interpretation of it.
ANGELO: did you attend that meeting in Makerere in the 60s of African writers?
NGUGI: Yes, the Makerere conference of 1962 is very, very important because it brought African writers who were then writing in English together from East Africa, from West Africa, those in exile, etc. It was a very energetic meeting. I was a college student. A bit older than you guys but still a college student. We were just as precocious as you guys.
ANGELO: I have a picture of you and Achebe which was published in The Transition
NGUGI: Oh yes, Transition no. 9 or no. 10. Yeah. Again, look at what was happening in Uganda at that time. The Transition magazine, a new journal. There was this fountain of new writings where this energy could be found. It has continued. It is one of the oldest journals in the world today. It has continued in Harvard, some in Kampala. The journal has found life and it’s stuck in the 60s.
ANGELO: Yeah, I feel like that was the golden era for African intellectuals, for writing, and for many other things–
NGUGI: No because, when next you are in Africa again, the same energy will come back because Africa still needs to fight for social revolutions meaning social liberation or revolution, or social change, meaning literally the real, real economic and political empowerment of all. And that is not yet there.
ANGELO: I wanted to ask, how differently do you feel literature relates to the ideals, ethics, and ethos of African societies compared to western ones? I mean we write for a variety of audiences but particularly African literature. But particularly African literature, does it address to common ideals ethics and ethos…
NGUGI Yeah. You read a book like, say, Things Fall Apart, […]. What’s compelling about African literature today is really how much it addresses issues which are pertinent to the world today. Whatever literature from Africa you get it addresses the main issues in our world today.
ANGELO: what influence do you feel that the world wide web, the internet, new technologies, are going to have on the consumption of African literature going forward?
NGUGI: I am hoping that technology will inspire Africa because I don’t think technology is bad for Africa, or even African literature. Imagine, for instance, this iPad. We can download many books with this. Imagine if every African child had one of these and access to internet when you can download many books. Imagine how this would solve many problems of availability of books and so on. So we need to find ways of embracing technology. Look at how easy it is to set up your own website. African languages can have their own websites. So, it opens possibilities, I think.
ANGELO: Turning to politics and the future of the continent. What is your assessment some recent political developments like in Kenya—which recently set the tone, I think, for something we are seeing discussed more and more, this idea of governance of national unity that has been replicated, I think, in Zimbabwe and attempted most recently without success in Ivory Coast.
NGUGI: What we need need is, whether Kenya or Zimbabwe, or Ivory Coast, what are called people-based governments. In other words, you want to avoid having… well what is really, really important is to what extent are those governments people-based and people oriented? Ok, that is the real issue. You don’t want a government of only the elite. The idea is to have the government meet the aspirations of the people. To what extent are these governments, whatever they are, rooted and geared toward meeting the aspirations of the people.
ANGELO: But where do you see this social movement and social transformation coming from?
NGUGI: I don’t know but obviously, the problems are so huge and only social movements that are based on those needs can really address the problems of Africa and provide stability. But when you get a situation in which we don’t believe in initiatives from within Africa, we don’t believe in ourselves in a sense, if you look at the simple thing of African languages, some of the most hostile positions come from African governments. And the hostility need not come in terms of political suppression of those languages, rather it is that the somehow don’t have “space” in the education system of the country. All of the resources are geared toward English, French, and Portuguese. And who is actually benefitting from resources being confined to production of a global elite? These are the kinds of things we have to rethink, fundamentally. To rethink our way of creating policies and positions that make Africa believe in itself. And then engage the world.
ANGELO: Do you think this is a challenge for future writers?
NGUGI: Well, for everybody in Africa. All intellectuals have to think of ways and means of empowerment of our base in Africa. Because it is only when we have an Africa that is trying this, that we can engage the world on the basis of networking, if you like, on the basis of strength, not on the basis of weakness. But when you get, for instance, a country having oil and you are starving that country and what they are producing is enormous, it can only mean that Africa is not harnessing those resources toward them, collective self-empowerment.
ANGELO: What is your dream/vision for the African university?
NGUGI: Well, when I am saying all these things, it is not to downplay the tremendous progress which is being made in Africa. Even within those adverse conditions in which we find ourselves. There are so many positive things that have happened. Education in Africa has opened to much, much more. When we talk about the 60s Makerere used to be the only college amongst peer nations such as Uganda, Kenya, Tanzania, Malawi, Zimbabwe, Zambia—of these, only one college. Look at the expansion of education today. Makerere is one of several colleges and universities, and within each country you find one or two or more… So that’s progress, that’s very important. I don’t want to downplay that and say it is not important. But in the end, it is how far people are empowered. And of course this is not something which is particularly African, this applies to all—Mexico, India, etc. That empowerment of people is very important.
ANGELO: Well, I agree with you. If you look at what happened in Tunisia recently, basically there was a social uprising. I think, essentially because the elite simply failed to manage things, and ignored that base in very disastrous ways and just the chaos that unemployment in the urban youth, and a large educated population created caused that change.
NGUGI: Well, there is this false conception that if somehow we develop a middle class, a vibrant middle class, everything is fine; a middle class that can feel at home in New York, in India, in other places, you know, a kind of globalized middle class. I think this is an error. So it is not unique what is happening in Tunisia; I think every other country should see themselves reflected in what is going on in Tunisia. They should not say “we are not Tunisia,” or “we are not Ivory Coast”.
ANGELO: How have you thought about where you’ve decided to live and teach?
NGUGI: My story is actually very long and so I cannot summarize it. For many years I a was literally in exile. Now I don’t consider myself in exile, but I happen to be working at the University of California Irvine.
~Chatting~
ANGELO: Can you think of some contemporary African authors who have that same energy that we saw in the 60s.
A: I think if you look at the new generation, really, I mean I don’t know what is animating them but look at these new writers, Habira, Ngozi … Let me put it this way. I just came back from Kenya, where I attended a conference organized by Kwani and this brought in sort of an older generation of writers from Kenya and younger generation. I go to the conference with my son—father and son, such a wonderful thing—and there was a young writer whose name is Mukoma wa Ngugi, he wrote a novel, Nairobi Heat. This is the Kwani generation of writers, because Kwani has become like the transition of today of the younger generation. So what transition was to us the transition was for us in the 60s, I think Kwani is going to be for the young writers of this generation. There are also many more publishers based in Africa than there ever were before. In our time there was an East African publishing bureau, but not a single publishing house. But now, there are many.
There is also a lot of work which is being done in African languages, although not as much as I would like to see. For instance, what am I reading now? I am reading The Teaching of Literature: Theory and Method, it is in Ki Swahili. There is a lot of work which is being done in and on Ki Swahili literature. Actually, in Eritrea a lot is being done on written languages. I can think of about nine collections of stories written in Eritrean languages. There are nine tribes yes?….. The other thing is, we must not think of ourselves as tribes. These are nations. The moment you say tribe, there is a certain conception of the word itself that immediately puts it in a certain category.
~End~
Interview was conducted for Sauti (The Stanford Journal of African Studies) 2011.
